The Scottish War Graves Project

Paul

Hello people,

To inform local people and to honor war victims in Holland. I need information.

I'm searching for details about this Schottish private on the general cemetery in Oud-Empel (´s-Hertogenbosch) Holland

Name: K.B. Alcock
Number: 14357720
Rang: Private (soldaat)

Royal Army Medical Corps
Attd. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Died: 5-11-1944
Age: 21 jaar

I know his name is Kenneth Baldwin and that he is Scottish, that's all.

Thanks, cheers Paul

ADP · Joined: 05 Jul 2009 Posts: 105 Location: Edinburgh

Hi Paul,

Here is the information from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website:

Name: ALCOCK, KENNETH BALDWIN
Initials: K B
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Army Medical Corps
Secondary Regiment: Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 7th Bn.
Age: 21
Date of Death: 05/11/1944
Service No: 14357720
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Southern part of churchyard.
Cemetery: EMPEL-EN-MEERWIJK (OUD EMPEL) ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCHYARD

I see no sign of him on the Scottish National War Memorial website.

CWGC info also at http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Kenneth-Baldwin-ALCOCK_Soldaten_0_524458.html

I see no birth likely to be him on the ScotlandsPeople website. The name is more likely to be English than Scottish. A search on Ancestry for a birth in England around the appropriate period gives none with the middle name Baldwin. On searching without the middle name, there are 19 results for 1923 ± 5 years. 13 of these have a middle initial, none of them B, so discounting them, that leaves 6 results, but no obvious way to choose between them. As a possibility I looked at the 6 records to see if by chance any of them had a mother's maiden surname of Balwin, but no, no Baldwins there.

ADP

Paul · Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:11 am Post subject:

Hi ADP,

Thanks for your quick reply!

I did find the CWGC files, that's where I found the Kenneth Baldwin names. The info at Weltkreigsopfer I added myself some moths ago, using the information of CWGC.

There are no records of anything about him here in the Communical archives. I think he was floating in the river Maas, because that's where the cemetery is next to. There are no other war graves on this cemetery.

That was a great idea to search these records, to bad it brought nothing! I don't know how it goes in the Royal Army, is it normal that people from England serve in a Scottish regiment?

I think it would be a hard struggle to get information.

Adam Brown · Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 714 Location: Edinburgh

Adam Brown · Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 714 Location: Edinburgh

Paul

I hope this helps

Kenneth B ALCOCK
14357720
Private, Royal Army Medical Corps
Born: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Residence: Hampshire, England
Western Europe Campaign 1944-45
05/11/1944

Kind regards

Adam

Paul · Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:55 am Post subject:

Hi Adam,

Thanks for your reply!

This could help me a lot, I will search with this information.
I will get back to you if it helped me.

Thanks!!

spoons · Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:36 am Post subject:

The whole subject of Regiments/Corps, units and attachments can be very confusing so I will try and explain a little. The following has applied since the 1920s - first world war was a little different.

Every soldier has a Regiment or Corps (the cap badge he wears) and a unit (a formed body of men to which he is posted). For example a man might have had a Regiment of KOSB and a unit of 7th Bn KOSB. Since 1920s, some men of certain corps have been on the posted strength of infantry units, mainly men of RAMC, RAPC, REME and ACC.

In this case his Regiment/Corps was RAMC but there is some confusion about his unit because of the way CWGC holds records. CWGC has no data field for unit so I think that it stores it in secondary regiment and secondary unit text fields, even though this is the primary unit with nothing secondary about it. It would be nice if someone with detailed knowledge of CWGC records could confirm this. To complicate matters further, a soldier on the posted strength of one unit could be attached to a secondary unit for a period of up to six months. Unfortunately men of Corps were often wrongly referred to as being attached to units when they were actually posted.

In the early years of my own Army career (1960s onwards) I was in the RAPC (my corps) and posted to various units including 1 KOSB, RHQ SG and 1 GORDONS (note that I am English and these are Scottish units). I was never attached to a secondary unit but was often referred to as 'Corps attached' to my posted unit.

I think the problem is that the the CWGC has a database layout which suited the WW1 structures (of which I know much less) and has no actual field available for primary unit (which would be needed by members of corps serving with e.g. infantry units).

A man in the RAMC could of course be on the posted strength of an RAMC unit but I think it unlikely in this case. I think it more likely that he was on the posted strength of 7th Bn A&SH (on a permanent basis) and not actually attached.

During my service, a posting to for example an infantry regiment would be normally 2.5 to 3 years but could be extended up to 4 years. We would often be required to wear parts of the unit uniform to which we were posted, for example tartan trews or a kilt but would always wear our own (in my case RAPC) cap badge.

I hope you find this interesting and not too confusing.

\Paul
_________________
www.ukwarmemorials.co.uk

Paul · Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject:

Hi Spoos,

Thanks, this is very interesting but really confusing for me. It doesn't make the search more easy.
Too bad the CWGC uses a wrong database for WW2 victims. But still good work of the CWGC that they placed all files on the internet!

Do you think there is a way to contact fellow servicemen of Alcock that served in this 7th Bn A&SH?

Cheers Paul

ADP · Joined: 05 Jul 2009 Posts: 105 Location: Edinburgh

Hmm,

The results from Ancestry are as follows, but alas none from Sheffield; unless the Sheffield born one is mis-transcribed somewhere.

Name, Date of Registration, District, County
Kenneth Alcock, Apr May Jun 1918, Prescot, Lancashire
Kenneth Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1920, Belper, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire
Kenneth Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1922, Chorlton, Lancashire
Kenneth Alcock, Apr May Jun 1922, Runcorn Cheshire
Kenneth Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1925, Stoke T, Staffordshire
Kenneth Alcock, Apr May Jun 1928, Warrington, Lancashire

Kenneth G Alcock, Apr May Jun 1918, Dudley, Staffordshire
Kenneth J Alcock, Jul Aug Sep 1920, Kings N, Warwickshire
Kenneth Ao Alcock, Oct Nov Dec 1922, Luton, Cambridgeshire/Bedfordshire, Huntingtonshire, Northhamptonshire
Kenneth J Alcock, Jul Aug Sep 1922, Cheale, Staffordshire
Kenneth M Alcock, Jul Aug Sep 1922, Easthampstead, Hampshire, Berkshire
Kenneth N Alcock, Apr May Jun 1922, Cheadle, Staffordshire
Kenneth A Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1923, Hull, Yorkshire
Kenneth E Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1924, Dover, Surrey,Kent
Kenneth G Alcock, Jul Aug Sep 1924, Stoke T, Staffordshire
Kenneth A Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1925, Burton
Kenneth C Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1925, Derby, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire
Kenneth W Alcock, Jul Aug Sep 1925, Birmingham N, Warwickshire
Kenneth L Alcock, Oct Nov Dec 1926, Birmingham S., Warwickshire

ADP

Paul · Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject:

That is strange, most likeley not all births are added to the list.
I searched other birth records today on the net but no Kenneth Baldwin Alcock.

I think the birth records aren't complete or there must be a wrong spelling or something.

spoons · Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:20 pm Post subject:

You could try the contact page of the A&SH Regimental Association website.

http://www.argylls.co.uk/index.htm

\Paul
_________________
www.ukwarmemorials.co.uk

Paul · Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject:

I did sent this website a mail but didn't get a reaction yet. Hopefully they can help with the search.
Too bad i'm still not getting near a sollution, it will be a hard struggle I think.

Any more tips for me?

Thanks guys!

kenmorrison · Joined: 05 Oct 2008 Posts: 747

Paul
From the Free Births, Marriages and Deaths web site
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

Kenneth B Alcock born January-March 1913
Mother's name - Sexelby
Birth registered at Eccleshall - from 1934 births in this area were registered at Sheffield.

Ken

kenmorrison · Joined: 05 Oct 2008 Posts: 747

just realised that would make him 31 not 21, sorry
Embarassed

Ken

Adam Brown · Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 714 Location: Edinburgh

Ken

There are no family details on the CWGC entry and no inscription on the stone. Maybe you have got the right man and the then IWGC made a mistake? 21 / 31 it's not like it's 21/ 46. It could be an easy mistake to make and if there was no family to correct it...

Adam