The Scottish War Graves Project

JIMMCGINLAY · Joined: 05 Oct 2007 Posts: 748 Location: Glasgow

While researching Cathcart Cemetery I've so far come across three grave stones which have obviously had a Dead Man's Penny set into the face of the stone and which has since been removed. I'm sure we all know of examples of other stones in other cemeteries which have suffered the same damage.

I was thinking this site might provide a valuable service by listing all such missing D.M.P.'s as this could provide a useful database when plaques show up on eBay etc.?

I thought I could start off by listing the three missing plaques in Cathcart below:

Name: MILLER
Initials: J F
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Highland Light Infantry
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Age: 32
Date of Death: 12/09/1918
Service No: 16264
Additional information: Son of James S. and Elizabeth Miller, of 32, Annette St., Govanhill, Glasgow.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. J. 18.
Cemetery: VAULX HILL CEMETERY

The srtone is located in Compartment L, Cathcart Cemetery.

Name: BURGESS, DAVID HENRY
Initials: D H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Unit Text: 1st Bn.
Age: 26
Date of Death: 14/04/1918
Service No: 265350
Additional information: Son of David Burgess, of 92, Overdale St., Langside, Glasgow.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 5.
Memorial: PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

The stone is located in Compartment T, Cathcart Cemetery.

Name: MACFEAT, MATTHEW ANDREW
Initials: M A
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Corporal
Regiment/Service: Northumberland Fusiliers
Unit Text: 1st/6th Bn.
Age: 31
Date of Death: 27/05/1918
Service No: 58355
Additional information: Son of Matthew A. Macfeat, of 111, Buchanan St., Glasgow.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: SOISSONS MEMORIAL

The stone is located in Compartment L, Cathcart Cemetery.

apanderson · Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 6903 Location: Stirlingshire

Hi Jim,

There was a thread about DMP mounted on stones a while back - I can't remember where it was now.......

Anyway, the decision that was made was to either crop the image so as not to show the DMP or to Photoshop it out adding a wee mesage that further images were available.

I think your idea of having some sort of database is an excellent idea as I can recall a lot more than just one or two where the stones now just have empty 'mounts'. There was also a thread on GWF on the same thing, where I ended up having a slight 'difference of opinion' with one of the members as he told me it was my imagination - according to him, DMP's were never mounted on stones!!

I would think two databases one with stones still having their DMP's would be a topic kept off the open boards and definately a public one with those missing/removed.

Anne.

P.S. Say Hello to Lora Laughing

spoons · Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject:

I think this is a great idea to have a list of 'stolen' DMPs in the public domain. I think this can only act to dissuade thiefs and possibly lead to the eventual return of the items. Important though that we do not give away the locations of any plaques.

For the benefit of those of us who have never seen one first hand, has anyone got a photo of one they can post (obviously not one in situ on a grave), then we all know what to look out for.

\Paul

apanderson · Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 6903 Location: Stirlingshire

A DMP mounted on a gravestone with the name deleted.

Anne

LST_164 · Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Posts: 10 Location: Northeast Wales

Interesting,
in my own (non-Scottish) field I know of two stones where the DMP is still in place - but for how much longer?

For the very reason that they are susceptible to theft I have been wondering how to present photos to a wider public.

The suggestion that the image is neatly edited carries some merit, and I may adopt this measure.

For the same reason where I know of memorials in churches which incorporate medals, swords, etc I am wary of publicising the same in any way.

LST_164

apanderson · Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 6903 Location: Stirlingshire

Hi Clive,

It's a bit of a touchy subject with many folk!

We've established a database of sorts containing details of all the stones both with and without their DMP's in the graveyards and cemeteries which have been photographed, so hopefully in the future, if and when any of them they turn up, we'll know where they've come from.

Obviously the photos posted on here have (mostly) had them 'edited' out in case someone somewhere thinks to visit the stone with a view to 'nicking' them.

I'm glad you've brought this thread back - perhaps any member who has posted one of these stones either with or without the DMP's will bring it to out attention.

We just use an excel spreadsheet which is easy to add details to - maybe it's something you'd like to do for your area?

Anne

Ghostwhisperer · Joined: 01 Oct 2008 Posts: 3799 Location: Ross-Shire

I have a stone of someone who fell in France complete with penny. I havnt posted it yet as he was buried abroad. Does someone want a note of the name and place?

apanderson · Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 6903 Location: Stirlingshire

Yes please.

If you could send me (by PM) his CWGC details and a note of the cemetery the stone is in, that would be great.

I've also sent you a PM.

Anne

LST_164 · Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Posts: 10 Location: Northeast Wales

Anne,
if a photo is edited so as to disguise the DMP would it be an idea to put some sort of brief note such as "picture edited" next to it on a public site - or is that itself a bit of a giveaway??

I dare say it's possible with photoshop technology to erase the plaque so completely that nobody would guess it was there in the first place. But does that notion do a basic disservice to the visual record which primarily the photo is?

A note added as above could direct an enquirer to the poster for further details...or is this getting too fiddly?
LST_164

apanderson · Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 6903 Location: Stirlingshire

Hi LST,

PM sent.

Anne

FortyTwa · Joined: 12 May 2009 Posts: 382 Location: Arbroath

For info, this chap is selling 3 x DMPs on eBay which he obtained 'from a local family'...

You'd think they would know if Wm Boyd had served with Irish Guards or The Black Watch...

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/dumnonia_forum/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=

One of them is this chap

Name: KELWAY, ROBERT JENKINS
Initials: R J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Devonshire Regiment
Unit Text: Depot Bn.
Age: 21
Date of Death: 18/04/1919
Service No: 16357
Additional information: Son of Mrs. Rosina Kelway, of Preston Cottage, Preston, Paignton.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 2768.
Cemetery: PAIGNTON CEMETERY

...and this chap too

Name: WHITAKER, JAMES
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Welsh Fusiliers
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Age: 27
Date of Death: 26/09/1917
Service No: 201877
Additional information: Son of James and Jane Whitaker, of Nelson, Lancs.; husband of Lillian Whitaker, of 4, Hartley St., Barnoldswick, Yorks.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: X. C. 8.
Cemetery: HOOGE CRATER CEMETERY

Several Wm Boyd possibles on CWGC records but puzzled as to why one family would end up with three DMPs from diverse units and parts of the country.

Maybe just too cynical...

gourdongirl · Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:40 pm Post subject:

I am currently documenting a cemetery in Lothian and have found 3 stones complete with pennies and a couple without. Once I work my way through the 900 or so photos I will PM the details.

apanderson · Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 6903 Location: Stirlingshire

Thank You!

Anne